Which
topics start arguments?
Prevent getting sicker
Which
topics start arguments?In our efforts to be most sympathetic, and respond to your emotional needs in this time of equipment failure, we must say that we hope your trouble will soon be over. Some kind members might come over from another country or state to find out what equipment you have, identify it, and research a service manual and/or an experienced pro who is familiar with that equipment. If not, there are many willing to write about causes of something they haven't fixed to advise you with an 'intelligent guess.' Until then, hang in there and have a nice, long writing experience.
Many novices to the HVAC field express three misunderstandings that cloud their search for a solution. Understanding them makes it much clearer why they feel no need to give specifics:
1] Certainly, I'm not perfect; but requiring: "that everyone speak their problems to me as if they have worked in the HVAC industry for years" is not my intent. You might understand that the next guy who comes to service your unit might need more than 'I dunno' over the phone. All you need to do is declare make, model and system in the beginning post.
2] Some have said "I was not aware that you were capable of resolving issues with specific systems." That is probably the reason for disagreement. This and other forums I am on go far beyond the few myths and half-learning found on forums where people discuss theoretical repairs and wind up with angels dancing on the head of a pin. There are only specific systems to be repaired.
3] Another is: "I have always looked for and received general information on these forums with the understanding that, like computers, there are a plethora of common problems that are well documented and easily resolved and far less common problems that are machine (read configuration) specific." Other forums are about paint, cutting wood, computers, cars, etc. - not HVAC, there lies the difference. Each machine in HVAC is now documented by the factory engineers; there are so many of the different appliances through the last 100 years, a service truck might have to pull a trailer filled with manufacturer's instructions behind to have them on hand. Heating and cooling machines are only correct when they have been set into the original configuration provided at the factory, according to the service manual that the engineers published. The internet is just BEGINNING to provide enough documents. Thermostats can't be discussed theoretically that apply to all systems. Don't demand it of anyone any longer.
I've been known on the HVAC forums for 'telling it like it is', making DIY royalty mad for pointing out that there is a real world of physics and following manufacturer's directions is the thing to do instead of listening to the buddy next door. I even wrote a site on flaming techniques, so I thought I'd heard it all. However, I got a new one ...
Ever since 9/11, anyone who has had an opinion other than go full bore forever in Iraq has been labeled a traitor. I understand where that comes from; but I never thought I'd get a similar response about fixing a gas valve. Here it is:
Quote: " I looked at some of your other replies and I believe you do not have one bit of the "DO IT YOURSELF" sprit that this country was founded on." Unquote.
I can only get a clue supposing that I am a traitor to all DIY's by pointing out that not following manufacturer's directions can damage machines and YOU.
BEFORE you start an argument by not giving enough facts to get an answer, adjust the attitude and understand this:
Having answered posts on web sites over the past years, there are certain topics that start arguments:
A flamer might pose these statements as a way to start an argument. Of course, someone might not know that they are sensitive areas and inadvertently get into a situation. They are statements that sound to an experienced HVAC technician that might be compared to - a teen declaring to his parents that he plans to take their car out and drag race it in the next street.
More often the arguer is someone (mommy flamer) other than the person asking the question. The arguer is interfering in the conversation because they want to 'defend the newbie' from the harsh answer that they are not asking a simple question and they are not being answered with enough diplomacy to recognize their right to be treated as if they were royalty, because the customer is always right.
These topics include the most dangerous, high-pressure, combustible, explosive dangers. A novice has no way of knowing just how much study must be done to understand the full story about these topics. They are so complex that the MAJORITY of HVAC repairmen never get to know enough about the subjects to fully understand the fine points, so the customers suffer from inadequate service. Attempts by legislators to force more awareness result in EPA and other licensing for refrigerant purchases and oil service technicians in the more aware states. The optimistic enabler can't believe that a company can make a machine that can be dangerous - hopefully, all dangers have been prevented in the design by the factory engineers.
To be assured, the arguer doesn't know enough about the subject to actually give any answers to the technical question that appears on the surface to only require a 'go ahead, no problem,' so they are simply there to flame. The purpose of starting an argument is to maintain a more rosy-glassed view of what can be done by a Do-It-Yourselfer (DIY) vs. really:
Myths held precious that misinformThe idea is a logical extension of what people without professional training in a field do in their everyday lives. If an appliance or car is wanted or needed, one shops for them. You buy them and then use them. It is somewhat logical to apply that procedure to plumbing, heating, electricity, etc., because that is how the desired new appliance is connected.
The quickest way to start a disagreement is by insisting on a single belief, that you are the only one who has ever had a problem of this nature (although MILLIONS of people have been in the same position with the same equipment.). By insisting on that, you are now in an equal position with everyone else - and there are no experts in that field, no trained tradesmen, nor anyone else who has had such a problem. Being 'even up' your ego is assuaged, as you enjoy discovery (as Columbus discovered a new land with seemingly nobody in it.)
it's all in the writing style:
" I believe it is air in the pipes."- a reasonable belief system.
"Is their any way to resolve this," - as it is a mechanical problem
in the real world, it is possible to resolve,
as others don't have the problem, or have solved and fixed them through repiping
or plumbing parts.
You are not the only person to come across this.
"or has anyone had any issues similar" - millions of people have noticed that over the past two millennia
"that might be a different issue?" - life is full of possibilities.
There is no experience to know of flow, quantity, capacity within the wires and pipes; they are 'invisible' to the user. The thought that such flows must be computed from charts to plan that the new device won't be 'starved' for supply is unusual. After all, budgeting in most offices is done by guess and hope to reduce costs by buying less until some problem is noticed, then made up for by purchasing at more expensive bids. An insufficient supply of office paper, pens, or cabinets to put them in doesn't cause an explosion or fire, as do pipes or wires that are too small.
This is a continuation of pre-scientific thinking patterns in today's technical world. An example is thinking that air, returning from heating the upstairs of a house has done its job and has no heat left, thus it wouldn't heat the air in an unheated basement up from 50F. It is the same thinking pattern that doesn't include the idea of pipe inside diameters being large enough to allow movement of gases or liquids against the friction of the pipe interior.
The work of the HVAC tech answering the post: Having to learn enough to become a licensed tech and perform these services safely AND so that the machine will last.
Usually the arguer will say that the reason the tech wants to make the job look more difficult is to make sure he and companies can charge more. That is an imaginative fable to keep the rosy glasses on and inflate the abilities of the DIY.
It's difficult to get the right words for an attitude. Someone who's gone through the learning steps of 'the basics' is told the safety reasons for them; which are the same reasons advisory boards are formed to make code which becomes the suggested laws. Someone who didn't go through that learning process might get part of the reason and not really know why an inspection is necessary to make sure that the safety is complete as possible.
The half-baked attitudes are:
A. that anyone else can do what the novice did and 'get away with it' is a
big part of DIY culture. The failure in thinking is that everyone is the
same with the same knowledge.
B. Professionals often do not recognize that the training they went through
is not generally known; they don't always realize that is why they are the
licensed pros. That is why people ask on the web. They usually won't walk up
to a pro on the job and 'pick their brains' for free.
C. More often, a thought is that someone who can paint well, cut wood, float
cement, and install windows has the manual skills to take on anything; but,
paint and wood won't shock, nor blow up. The novice doesn't have the daily
threat of injury or death on the job of the pro.
D. Yes, it is a 'free country;' you have the same freedom of opportunity for
injury and death as anyone else.
If you went through all the steps to learn all the codes to perform correct installation so you can inspect the installation yourself; or you leave it alone. You certainly don't advocate anyone do the work without doing it right. If you can do it right, you don't need to ask on the web, If you don't know, there is no safety for you to answer the post. One way to know if you aren't guessing is to have a license for the trade. Then you are glad to have it checked by another pro.
Jury-rigged systems are the reasons many post. Their system isn't working right as a result of mistaken techniques. To generally advocate that everyone else ignore codes and settle for guesses is a dangerous attitude; the novice doesn't recognize their attitude is dangerous.
It is to the eventual economic benefit of the tech and the factory to give out NO advice and to agree with the arguer. That is why ripoffs are so common.
Which is the best heating system?
The voting booth for the popularity contest is still open:
I prefer:
PTAC
_____resistance electric
_____heat pump
radiant
_____floor
__________electric
__________hot water
_____ceiling
_____wall
baseboard
_____electric
_____hotwater
warm air
_____direct vent wall heater
_____central
Because:
____I once had one.
____I sell them.
____I have small windows and good insulation.
The underlying 'myth' is that knowledge and experience is free - primarily because education is provided free for youth; but, not after becoming an adult. Thus education is a 'welfare entitlement' and possibly that the pro should spend his time teaching you instead of running his income-producing business, as do teachers (employees with benefits,) You can ask on the internet for unsupervised vocational 'training;' without hands-on experience and no gurarantees it is from a skilled teacher nor if it is correct advice. The main point is that the pro spent years learning how to do it right and run a business. A DIY then has to take on the responsibility for paying for that, and - if really can't afford to pay for skill, must do the learning and investment to do it right himself; but 'foxing' an inadequate businessman into working to his detriment is challenging play.
Charging an air conditioner seems easy.
When a guesser dumps refrigerant into an AC with no regard to the type of metering device, how much is the right amount, nor the conditions of air flow and weather, the quicker the death of the AC - and the techs get to put a new one in at a better profit.
Charging air conditioners seems easy (because the DIY can get a can of refrigerant from the auto store and dump in a can for his car.) There is no realization that there is a difference between a unit like a central air conditioner and car air conditioner. A car has something called an accumulator that stores excess refrigerant. A central air conditioner doesn't have that feature, so requires a specific amount of refrigerant that is 'tuned' by reading charts the factory makes and using measuring instruments the DIY doesn't have because they are too expensive.
Read the above and look up the meanings of the words, learn it so well that you understand it and the reference it came from here: http://www.refrigtech.com/charge.html After you understand it, there can be no further argument.
Many know that getting refrigerant is against the law. That is the thrill of our 'get-away-with-it' culture. Like driving faster than the speed limit, he wants to 'get-away-with' getting the refrigerant and wants to use it to 'get-away-with' not paying a tech while 'getting-away-with' not having to take a tech course to know how to do it, in hopes that he can just guess the right amount to 'get-away-with' not doing more damage to the unit than solving a problem that he's not sure he has. It is the human condition that writing law and its enforcement can never solve (a more correct twist on 'suckers are born every minute.'
Fixing an oil burner seems easy - just change the nozzle and adjust the electrodes.
I came to my knowledge through unsupervised learning on-the-job (when there was a lot of 'forgiving' in burner styles 40 years ago, not so today with high efficiency burners) and book study in DIY fashion, then learned from factory training and from others more experienced on-the-job. Most won't accept that after ten years of vocational training, on-the-job training, and working in the field that is just the STARTING point of understanding what is going on in the HVAC trade, when an idea of safety and liability becomes pressing from having units shoot flames on your face. Many leave for other things at that point, or specialize.
There is no upside to advising mateurs on oil burners. If you tell them it is dangerous, just push the button once, as some say on the machine or customer manual, then call a pro, they accuse you of wanting to make money. If you tell them anything at all, and they cause soot, smoke, fire, or explosion, you are to blame for not warning them. If you point out that it could be any number of causes for the problem, they find one and then brag how they found the one while you didn't catch that one. Even if you warn them and tell them what to do they still blame you. If you point them to a manual to do it, they complain it is too technical and they want a free lesson NOW. It's all about saving money. The lesson to be drawn is to agree with a DIY for them to replace every part with a new one until the problem is solved.
Playing with 220V for residential equipment and 440v 3-phase in commercial is daily testing. That doesn't mean I'd tell people how to play with it unless I was on the site showing someone I knew very well, so they'd survive. The same with oil burners. I do recognize that SOME level-headed people can slowly and carefully go through the books on-line to learn how to repair their oil burners and they do have the 'right to remain silent' and the 'freedom to die as they choose.'
However, the folks that come on to say that they'll do the repairs because they don't have the money can be scary. The first is the idea of why they don't have the money; having sufficient money to take a taxi when drunk and enough to call a pro for explosive situations seems level-headed. Having enough money comes from hard work; though I know from experience it is hard to get started to get enough for many. The other point is that not having money, there won't be the cash to buy a $1000 combustion test set, which means getting all the parts like new, they can't be adjusted. So I remain cautious about running an unsupervised trade school by correspondence on the web.
Instead of believing a guess based on no experience or old wive's tales gleaned from conditions 40 years ago, read this section on oil service.
If you don't get it tuned right, then there are benefits to the oil company: I've had owners insist that all they had to do was adjust the parts - until they had their oil boiler smoke up on them and refuse to work, then they appreciated the heads up to ALWAYS use a combustion tester when servicing. As an electronic tester can tell WHILE THE BURNER RUNS and provide a printed strip recording of most that is needed, it only takes a few more minutes. Oil companies will tell you that it doesn't have to be done for profitable reasons:
This is part of the flamer's creed:
Flamer's CREED: The Flamer wants to refute professional experience.
He wants to establish that:
There is not much danger.
Anyone can repair electrical, gas and fuel devices.
The DIY can therefore spend
less money than hiring a professional.
Finding the right part
to change is the cure for all problems.
If he can establish that
discomfort is always from parts failure,
he never will have to get
professional tools to adjust devices.
And can blame his failure
due to an unadjusted new machine on a factory 'lemon.'
Then a repair company sells and installs a new machine.
Businesses should charge less because doing repairs are easy and the bill handed to the homeowner is always 'too much' or a 'ripoff'.
An oft-repeated
theme on DIY sites: "I'm kind of inclined to buy the part and just hire a contractor
to put it in."
I always am immediately hit by this idea as strange. It is a DIY dream and
a contractor nightmare.
I know it is about 'saving'; but the idea that a same contractor would install something he didn't buy, therefore has no control over satisfaction from the supplier, manufacturer chain, would give pause to a contractor. Also, there will be the proper fittings, valves and controls in the installation that don't come with the device that have to be assembled and adjusted correctly (the more important part of the service.)
A contractor has to make at least $100 an hour for 1000 hours a year just to stay in business. Spending time making half that is dangerous business for him. The operating word is 'interest', like interest from an investment. His investment is his business, if there isn't enough return, it is dangerous for him to take no 'interest.' So plots by EMPLOYEES (people paid whether they produce or not with all benefits) to reduce his operating income serve to "save"; but also eliminate SKILL from the community (most contractors go out of business in the first five years - survivors don't fool with 'working just to keep people busy.') So the plan has its dangers.
An indirect water heater is the cure for an unsatisfactory tankless coil. The question is: Do you want it installed by a jerk? If he's not a jerk, he HAS TO make the money in labor and parts that isn't in the tank price. His 'mistake' is probably in quiting a price that LOOKS like he is doubling the device cost - in order not to look like he's charging as much for labor, business operations, medical and retirement as is actually needed for someone who gets paid NONE of those from someone else but you.
Do-it-yourselfers (DIY's) usually have no experience in the related licensed construction trades like plumbing, heating, air conditioning, nor electrician. Most are employees in other fields, so there is no realization that companies survive by charging enough to cover ALL COSTS, including retirement, education, lawyers, licenses, rent, office expenses, tools, vehicles and staff.
Without business experience, there is no realization that prices for service are expensive because there is no welfare or employer benefits for a business to fall back on - EVERYTHING has to be paid for in the bill. Think about it; if it takes $40,000 a year PLUS benefits for you, then what is $20 ($20 x 2000 work hours is $40,000) an hour for the guy who is getting to your house, the office rent and utilities, advertising, lawyers, accountants, staff to answer the phones, do the billing, keep stock, arrange for maintenance, clean the office, pay for the truck, and get THEIR benefits. Great if the sole owner can do all that in time AFTER 40 hours of work, pay for all the hardware, and his wife can work another job. It now costs about $70 an hour to just have a business last. When an hour goes by without a sale or service, survival is at risk.
Bottom Line: Don't admire the ignorance of the braggart who really doesn't know, even if he becomes a 'buddy' and brags how he saved money by fumblework. An HVAC repairman/installer usually doesn't have enough experience in these subjects after some years of tech school and ten years of working in the field to fully understand them.